Margaret
So welcome back to Unmuted and Unabashed.
As women, we've been taught to act professional. But somewhere along the way, think acting professional became something like acting like someone else, someone you're not. So today we're going to break that down a little bit. And that is what we call the corporate accent. when I think about myself, when I worked in the corporate world, sometimes I'd be a little watered down, overly polished, you know, stepping into those Zoom calls or in meetings or performance reviews.
I do wonder how many of us actually realize in the moment that we slip into a work persona, so we're going to to speak to times when we've caught ourselves or maybe other people, slip into that.
Brooke, Lisa, who wants to start out?
Lisa
Go for it, Brooke.
Brooke
Go, okay. So I am hyper aware of when I, I wouldn't call it acting. For me, it's more masking when I put that corporate mask on because otherwise I have this uncanny ability, I don't know if anybody's noticed, to be unfiltered, frankly. And so it does take a lot of energy and brain power for me to put that mask on and navigate those waters.
However, I have told a CFO before, "I don't understand what you're saying. If you could just take the corporate out of your mouth and tell me which project we're gonna focus on, that would be the best use of my time."
If you're asking if it went great, it didn't go great. But I would say that's how my brain works. And he literally said, "No, we're gonna pursue both projects."
And so I guess my biggest cringe for myself is when I use the corporate euphemisms. But I don't cringe, I just laugh. There's a reason I'll say, "well, that's just a lot to unpack" in today's meeting. Because there is, I don't know how else to say, "that's not what this meeting is about."
Margaret
Right, right. It's like shorthand for so many things. So many things. What do think, Lisa?
Lisa
I have all these thoughts running through my head. So I used to corporate speak a lot more than I do now. And it was, a lot of it was in my first couple of jobs. I remember when I was doing PR for an airline, I very specifically remember this instance where I was talking to a reporter and I was just saying all these fancy words and I, I recognized in the moment, I'm not saying anything.
But I was trying so hard to impress him and I felt, I felt like an idiot. I also remember when I worked back in publishing, it was a combination of corporate speak and then, also making it that much better, incorporating all those marketing words.
You know, all those buzzwords, state of the art and then the data driven, blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's like, you're reading out of a catalog. So absolutely. These days I am the person who says, could you stop talking about that? that's not what our meeting is about. And I don't want to lose sight of what we actually need to figure out here, or I'll go too far and say what I'm really thinking.
Margaret
There's a certain privilege, you know? I think it's gotten me in trouble a couple times later in my career where I'm like, you know what? I'm a VP and I have things to say and other people are wasting everybody's time. And if you know me, you probably know sometimes I can be not passive aggressive, just aggressive. And, you know, a little, I don't know, a little harsh.
And I think that's the Capricorn in me. I blame the Capricorn because one of the worst things you can do is waste my time. And I think just over the years, I got more confident. Like Lisa, I think I've lost some of that filter. But then sometimes that filter can just take you back to saying, let's circle back on that... at the end of the day.
Brooke
I don't think anybody's hiring us for the filter words. You know, if that's the personality or that's the person that you want to hire you definitely don't hire me and you definitely don't hire you Margaret.
Because during that interview process I am finding out about your culture. I am finding out how you communicate with me during that time period and I will be very transparent with you in what I am looking for. And so that's one of those things where I'm valued for my directness or my ability to identify the issue quickly. And if you're looking for that filler person, that's probably not me. You're not gonna hire me.
Lisa
Okay. In this stage of your careers, I don't know if you're like me where I think when I was younger and I would see other women using this corporate speak, I would be impressed and I would try to maybe copy them. Now, when I see it with colleagues that have less experience than me, I recognize it right away that they're not comfortable and they're just covering up using all this language, that they're trying to impress. So I'm wondering if you two have the same kind of memory or experience.
Brooke
Well, I think we're always modeling behavior I'm always watching what other people are doing to say, hey, what's working for this person? How can I learn from this person? Even if it's a lesson that I'm like, ooh, I don't wanna do that, which happens as well.
And so that's where I think it's really important that we acknowledge the privilege that we have in the tenure that we have and the spaces that we've chosen, been selected to be in that we can come with our authentic self. Because at the end of the day, think everybody is craving it because there's so much crap out there. Crap, I hope that doesn't take us to like an explicit podcast rating.
However, people are desperate for authenticity. And so I think that modeling positive behavior with authenticity and actual substance to what you're saying in a concise way, I think that absolutely brings people with you and teaches them that it's okay.
Margaret
Yeah, I do agree that at a certain point in your career, I mean, I was trying purposely to model behavior. And then when I would get, frustrated, I would move to that heightened sense of, you know, my D coming out.
I mean, not being able to completely filter probably as I should have. I was just very blatant about things. And I would have people come up to me and they're like, "I just loved when you said that. That was great." I'm like, yeah, don't do as I do. Be careful.
Lisa
But it's interesting too, when you're saying that. I work in a company now that's, as you know, is global and there are so many people in Europe and they approach things so differently. They're very straight shooters, incredibly direct. So perhaps that's one of the reasons why I am so direct at work now because I'm surrounded by it. And even the people with less experience, they're incredibly direct. And I appreciate that.
Margaret
It's great to have that perspective for sure, because I do think for so many reasons we are too polite. So anyway, so we're, I would say at some point in time, we're all guilty of using this corporate accent.
But I think one of the questions we want to address, of course, is why do we do this? Why do we start performing or masking ourselves at work? I think for many women, it's survival, I think for me when I was younger, it was a sense of safety. I did see other people modeling it that was part of it.
Brooke, when I worked in the corporate world, there were a lot of discussions with HR and corporate wellness about bringing your whole self to work. It's a really cute slogan, isn't it? What do you think about that?
Brooke
Listen, I use it because it's a great way to describe an environment that you're trying to create. We know that from an HR employee engagement and productivity standpoint, when people feel like...they're not masking and that they can be authentic, then when they're authentic, they build authentic connections.
And when you have authentic connections at work, you stay longer, right? So there's a reason that we talk about that in HR 1000%. However, part of that is training each other to accept each other's quote unquote, whole selves, because let's be real. I can say things that a black woman would be perceived as being too aggressive, say.
I mean, you cannot ignore that piece of the puzzle. so, especially employment law, HR, I've definitely seen where, well, this person was aggressive. Well, I said the same exact thing two weeks ago. I literally said, "do not talk to me till I've had my coffee". And that's OK for me to say, but not OK for a person of color to say.
And how do we talk through that and how do we teach it because if we're not all using the same expectations for behavior then there's a lot of risk for confusion.
Margaret
That's right. The cultural differences are huge. Creating that awareness and having those discussions is important. I think there's a bit of a, I don't know, it's an oxymoron, know, bring your whole self to work, but not too much of your whole self, you know, I think it's kind of a mixed message.
Brooke
It's the difference between... you know my mom would always say actions speak louder than words and I always say like don't talk about it be about it. Show me.
That's one of those things that we've talked about before where it's like, do not talk to me about "bring your whole self to work," but you're not teaching managers how to receive or employees how to ask for increased compensation. Right. Because that's one of those things that like feeds directly into what we're talking about is how do you ask for it? What does that look like?
And I definitely think corporate speak is a herd mentality. We do it because it feels safe. We do it because we see people that use it progress through the ranks. It's not because we love to say we're gonna run that up the flagpole. Like I think everybody feels a little dirty when they say that.
Lisa
I hope so.
Margaret
Well, like total cringe when I've heard stuff like that come out of my mouth. However, I do believe that it's different when it comes out of a man's mouth. So let's talk about that gender tightrope a little bit. I do feel like men can get away with that stuff. I think I feel like women are judged so much more harshly.
Lisa, what do you think?
Lisa
My gosh, absolutely. Yeah, because also, men think because they know that they can get away with it more, they say it with more authority. Whereas sometimes women will say something, the same words, but because they know they're putting on a show and they don't feel comfortable wearing that mask, that it comes across in a different way. And that's because we know what we're up against.
Brooke
And that's just it, right? Because we were taught to try to emulate what success looks like. And studies show that women's success stops at middle management. It does not go to the boardroom, it rarely goes to your CEOs, and if it does, or your executive team, that's awesome.
That's one of those things that if a man can do it, that's great, but on a woman, all I'm doing is impersonating a man. And people pick up on that's not authentic. So you're not only up against a gender bias, but you're also up against people don't connect to what they don't feel like is authentic.
Lisa
Yes, precisely.
Exactly.
Brooke
And so I say this all the time and if you know me, you've heard it and I'm super, super sorry you get to hear it again. But you can either be a mediocre version of a man or someone with a different background and never be the best version of that because you can't, right?
Like I did not grow up in a country club. I do not have that community. I do not have those connections. So I can either pretend to be that person and at best be mediocre to good, but not great. Or I could be the best version of Brooke.
And the best version of Brooke is leaning into spaces where those other folks aren't. So leaning into the Latino community, leaning into the LGBTQ plus community and those communities. They welcome you, they take you into their arms, they want to give you work.
And so that's what I always say. I'm like, I could be this perfect buttoned up person, but at the end of the day, or lawyer, because I get "you don't seem like a lawyer" all the time. I'll take it as the compliment you intended it. However, I could be a mediocre version of that, or I could be the best version of myself.
Margaret
So we've established we all do it. There are ways to not do it, especially because there is a cost. There is a cost to emulating a man because they are judged differently.
You know, they're judged for what they can accomplish, not what they have accomplished, right? Their potential. Right, right. So there is a cost to women continuing to do it and to keep up that cycle. You know, stuff doesn't change unless you change.
Lisa
And it's not authentic. Like what Brooks saying, you can see right through it.
Margaret
Right. So is there a cost, you know, a tax, so to speak, that we're paying for slipping into another persona or not being completely authentic?
I'll start with a story. I have so many stories, but when I was running my marketing agency full time, I had at one point a dozen employees and I didn't have to go to every single client meeting because I hire great people. But when my employees told me that a client was consistently just downright rude.
So I'm like, okay, I'm going to come with you to the next meeting and let's work this stuff out. And sure enough, right there in front of me, we were talking about a new campaign. He said, "well, that's stupid."
And what did I do besides take a beat? I said something like, "okay, let's circle back with some other options" and moved the meeting forward. Professional, smooth, like it never even happened, which was completely wrong.
And, you know, of course I couldn't shake it. I literally felt sick to my stomach for so many reasons. One, I was just mad, mad as hell at him and at myself. I just let somebody disrespect me and my employees to my face.
And I just pivoted for a paycheck. And that's the cost of a corporate accent. It's not just jargon "running off the flagpole". It's those moments when you perform "professional" instead of protecting what really matters. That could be your people, it could be your own integrity.
And you feel it, you carry it with you. Like I remember, I remember that meeting. I will never forget it. And I did fire that client soon thereafter. But damn, I've replayed that so many times. So we do pay a persona tax.
Brooke
I have a story like that. So it was sales compensation discussions, And if you know anything about sales comp, you know that you should not keep sales folks on a large guaranteed salary. A lot of their compensation comes from bonus of selling, right?
But some folks had been kept on these very large guarantees for a very long time and they had not sold anything for years. And I was talking through how I designed the new plan and this CFO goes, "well, that's easy for you to say, you always get a paycheck". And like my paycheck team was significantly less. I was at the beginning-ish of my career and like I worked a lot.
And he said it in this rudest way, and I looked at him, and this is where like, this is probably, this is probably the ADHD ... so little peek behind the scenes. But I said, "what makes you think that you can speak to me in that manner? What have I done that you think you can speak to me like that?"
And he can like paused and he stopped and he it made him think and he's like "you're right" um but it didn't stop that kind of behavior and I left that position.
There's definitely a price to pay because studies show that when it comes from a woman versus it comes from a man we can say the same exact thing and we're seen as aggressive where a man that's just... you know there's a whole Taylor Swift song about it if you don't trust the studies listen in the Taylor Swift song.
But I'm not good at masking because it cost me my peace.
Margaret
So it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Brooke
So if you look at those two stories, right? You did it the right way. I did it, some would say the right way, some would say the wrong way. We both lost those opportunities. Neither one of those opportunities brought us more cash. Neither one of those opportunities, neither one of those responses stopped the behavior.
Margaret
So if we talk, you know, if we're thinking about the costs, what type of cost is it? I think both of you said this previously, this performing, this constant masking, it is exhausting. It is just exhausting.
Do you guys think about the performing like costing us authenticity or brand or credibility?
Lisa
Yeah, I mean, I everybody shows different sides of themselves. But for me, I mean, I think you nailed it when you said it's the exhaustion that comes from it and the lack of joy. Yeah, we're all working to make a paycheck, but I want to enjoy myself too, and I don't want to feel forced to be something that I am not.
One of my examples is that I was speaking with our key investor, the money guy who was in charge of everything. And he's, you know, trying to get me to agree with him and buttering me up and saying, "you know, you're the trusted one," whatever.
I knew that not a day before he had told my boss that he thought that he should fire me. So that's the kind of thing. And no, I never said to him, "Hey, I know that you, what you said". I just went along with it because he, I knew he had more power and I didn't want to lose my job. So it's exhausting. It's just exhausting.
Brooke
I think we all, on some level we all have to, like I call it dancing for our supper. We all have to present, we all have to dance for our supper, we all have to dance for our dinner. I get really frustrated and I just say this, like it's everything.
I mean we don't even have to say anything, right ladies? Like we can literally just be sitting on a Zoom call and I've had people go, "your face looks really mean, smile."
Lisa
Yeah, I've had that too. Right.
Brooke
Say that to a male attorney and if he does it, I'll do it myself. Or "likable badass." Women have this whole like emotional thing that we also, so we can't just come to work like a man. We also are expected to nurture and to emotionally care take for everyone around us all the time. And that's not just our family. Those are like, that's our colleagues.
When I managed teams of people, I just would say, and I say to colleagues now, like I'm very direct. "I want what's best for you. I will help you get what's best for you." But if I don't put like, have a great day at the end of my email, literally it's just because I'm answering your question as quick as I can. I have another question behind it. Please don't, cause some people will take that as she's mean, She didn't say, "Hi" so and so exclamation point.
Lisa
Right, smiley face.
Brooke
Right, and there's nothing wrong with like that's the whole thing. Like I want everybody to be able if that's who you are do it. I'm here for it. Love it for you. It is not me and it would not be asked of a man. And that's where I get frustrated where I'm like I'm just a badass team. I'm not necessarily always likable.
I never intend to be rude. Somebody feels like I've been rude, please tell me and I will respond appropriately. I'm not always gonna apologize.
Margaret
passive aggressive?
Brooke
No, I mean it's true. Like what is it that if I don't say have a great day, I'm mean to you. Like I'm not your mom. I don't expect that from male bosses. Like they're not my dad. I don't know why you, other than the fact that I'm a woman, like why you would expect that from me.
Margaret
Right.
Lisa
So right. Curious if either of you can recall a time that you were praised for acting like a man because I have been, I've been told as a compliment and I took it as though I took it as a compliment because of who was saying it, but have you guys had situations like that?
Margaret
Was it coming from a man?
Would a woman ever, would a woman say that to a woman? I've said it, I have said it to women.
Lisa
I wanna know it. we're like, "that's ballsy."
Margaret
I don't know. That made me cringe when you said that. But then when I thought about it, I have said that. I have said that.
Lisa
Yeah. It was really meant to be a compliment though, but I, I mean, clearly I don't have them. So does that mean that people who do are better? I mean, it's not. We've been conditioned.
Brooke
When I have moved like a man, depending on who it is, and I think we all calibrate to who we're working with on some level.
No, I have been called lovingly and affectionately like a velvet hammer. And they've meant it in a like, or gritty or tough or like outwork anybody in the room.
Margaret
Yeah, and it depends on the other people, you know, obviously you're around as well.
We know we do it, we know why we do it, we know how we do it. Can we change the game by showing up differently? Or do we just have to play to win? I mean, how can we change the game?
Brooke
We always play to win. Why are we playing if we're not playing to win? Like immediately my competitive is like, we play to get paid and to win. Like, and this is why no one expects me to be likable.
Lisa
That's funny because my mind goes to, yeah, I want to teach everybody else to be more authentic because I'm a mentor to other people.
Margaret
I know it's hard, but yes, that's normally where my mind goes. It depends on who else is in the room. And it's not only do I need to give an intelligent answer, but I need to model that for the other people in the room. And it's not always just women.
Lisa
No, it's not. Yeah. It can be younger men too or older men who should know better. You're right. And it's not, yeah, that's not necessarily young men.
Brooke
And it's necessarily not necessarily younger women either. I've had many a male older than me. I've had women older than me be like, "I'm so glad you brought that up, I don't know how."
Because they come from a background that maybe doesn't speak corporatese. Their parents were blue collar workers, didn't bring corporate stuff home. So they don't know how to say, No, actually, this is what we need. Like this is the compensation that I need. Or I did this project. It went really well. Let me tell you how I did it.
And so it's not I would say and then I learned a lot too from young people, but they're Gen Z and they're like, not today. And we have, Margaret and I have a common friend named Lindsay who I love. And she was on Margaret's team.
I'd be like, my gosh, she just said what, how could she say like, you can't do, my, and then I'm like, why Brooke?
When you were her age, like, why not? And it's that like slow conditioning, how do you boil a frog? So I would say, even with your mentees, you're absolutely a symbiotic relationship and the youth teach me things. They taught me this, they taught me this.
Margaret
I don't know what that is. What are you doing for the people that can't see you?
Brooke
Clicking my nails together, my forefinger and my thumb, it's a thing that youth do. It's a youth culture, alphabet mafia, we love it and I'm here for it. It means like go on get down in my elder millennial speak.
I'm an elder millennial and that's... I use things. I still say cool. I still say neat. I'm like that's so neat.
Margaret
I call people dude all the time.
Brooke
I think that's coming back though.
Margaret
I knew that. Okay, so with our Unabashed Movement, I've been interviewing a lot, a lot, a lot of women. And one of the things that keeps coming back to me is this knowledge, this reminder that not everyone has had careers like the three of us.
We've all worked in big corporate organizations, with lots of layers. There are so many women who have nobody. They don't have a mentor. They've worked by themselves. They're the only one doing HR. they're the only one doing finance, whatever it is. And they don't have that kind of ecosystem at work, where they have people to talk to and mentors.
And so with that in mind, let's come up with some ways that we can help those kinds of women, men, people show up differently.
And I'm just going to throw out because I am a data person. You have to collect the data. You can't change anything unless you understand what's happening. And a lot of that is looking inward and noticing what you're doing and just being aware of it. What do you guys think?
Lisa
I think it's key. Something that I've had to learn and I'm still struggling with is, don't have an emotional reaction and immediately make a decision from that. You have to let it simmer. You need to be able to question your own thought process and become more neutral. So especially with bigger things, don't just go with like, Yeah, that's the idea!
Margaret
So it's being aware of that and then making a conscious choice to react differently than maybe that you have in the past. I like that.
Brooke
I think that being able to show up as yourself in a meeting, I think it starts with who are you and who do you want to be? Like when I started my corporate career, I chose people that I really admired and I would think, what would Eric do? What would Jeff do? And then I emulated it until it became my style.
And so understanding and taking the best of everything that I was seeing, but really observing and pulling in the lessons that you've learned.
And I think it's so important to learn something from everyone and then to understand who you want to show up as and what does that look like for you?
How do you want to be perceived? Like start there and then start to layer in the persona that you want. That you want to present. And that may look different in two years that may look different in six months and it may evolve as you go. But like at least understanding the journey and the path that that you're on if not necessarily the destination.
Margaret
I think it is collecting that data, just being aware, just being aware and then synthesizing it and making it you.
Brooke
I think for people that are pivoting or, even me, I like to be in environments where I'm constantly learning.
If you don't have it. LinkedIn. I hated LinkedIn. Thought LinkedIn was for consultants. They were for people that didn't actually work. All these things. I don't need LinkedIn. My work speaks for itself.
And then I met Margaret. Margaret was like, yeah, if no one can find you.
Cause you're like 40 paces off the fifth rock to the left. Like you be the best in your hobbit hole That's your choice. And I was like, wait. And so LinkedIn is really a tool in your toolkit that start paying attention to people that you authentically connect with find people that you authentically connect with and start paying attention to them on LinkedIn.
Lisa
Have you two noticed that the more you've lost the corporate speak and the more authentic that you've been, that the relationships that you've built are so much stronger? Because I have.
Margaret
Yes.
Brooke
This is my favorite thing to talk about. So I'm so glad you brought it up. When I dropped the mask, I was able to build true, authentic, strong relationships. Because my people were able to find me. They couldn't find me before. But when I started to become authentically me, all of these amazing, incredible relationships presented themselves. And they're true, they are authentic and they are incredible. And I love them and I like them and I send them Christmas cards. They send me Christmas cards and all the things.
I love it.
Margaret
So the moral of the story is figure out who you want to be. And I don't think it's that much different than who you are at home.
Lisa
Yeah, maybe a little less mean.
Hey, I've been married for a really long time.
Margaret
Then speak for yourself, Lisa. I say with love.
So think about it as what does bring you joy? What brings you energy? And what you should not do at work is do something that makes you miserable and saps all your energy and takes away all your joy.
And day after day, putting on this work persona, where you're trying to impress somebody because you think they might promote you or you're mimicking your boss because that's the only mentor you've had.
It's not going to work for you and it's not going to make you happy. So the moral of the story here is one, to be aware, what do I want? And two, what am I doing today? And three, what can I change?
Do little micro experiments. And we just talked a lot about LinkedIn. That's one of the best places for you to experiment. Really look at your last couple posts, if you're posting.
Look at your posts and see what you're saying. Does it really sound like you? Or you obsess over it, being right. That is a great opportunity to experiment. So that's my moral of the story. Be real, be you.
Be true to who you are. Do you guys have any last parting words of wisdom?
Brooke
If you are, and I have been there, I have been stuck in jobs because the Great Recession or I couldn't find the right position to move to or whatever, couldn't make it past the stupid applicant tracking systems to get the calls. I have 1,000 % been there and what I would say is make your goal and then every day strive towards it.
So like, every day build that resume out. Every day, write down the successes you had at work. So you can, when you do get that call you are coming prepared So just because you can't necessarily follow your bliss and quit your job, prepare to leave your job every single day. And that will alleviate some of that.
I have been there, I have known that, I have sat in the car and been sick to my stomach because I don't want to go in. But just focus on that goal that you have and allow that goal to pivot as you grow.
Lisa
So somebody said this to me, ⁓ within the last couple of years and I've thought a lot about it. And it at first it didn't really, make sense because you're, you're doing something to yourself. But I've realized my goal in my current position is to make myself not necessary.
I want to do what I can for this company to, to make things right. What can I do that will make a difference so that I'm not even needed, or at least not in this capacity.
Margaret
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's powerful. I love that.
All right. Well, we've covered a lot here. We have unpacked so much in this podcast, ladies.
Lisa
And we've been very unabashed doing so.
Margaret
Yes, we have. Thanks, ladies. We will see you in the next podcast. And in the meantime, remain unabashed.
